122941-i-miss-wildstar-page-2
Page 1, Page 2 Content I think you're confusing "The majority of the WoW's abundant raiding community being satisfied with LFR since Cataclysm." (a path of least resistance) and choosing to almost completely opt out of doing Hard Mode/Mythic with "No one doing Mythic Raids because they're simply too hard for people to complete when they try." People flock to what's the easiest means of achieving something. That's a common theme in not just MMO's, but in life. It's pretty much confirmed that people don't even attempt the hardest raids, since the constant claim (since the very first expansion of Burning Crusade) was that non-Hardcore raiders "simply wanted to see inside of raid zones", and when you look at the repeat results of how the easiest raid settings were completed by the sheer vast majority of raiders. And I'm pretty confident in saying that with an even easier time, Wildstar's Top Guilds would stomp all over WoW's Mythic raids. Especially since Mythic raids are far more forgiving than Wildstar's "one-and-you're-done" combat system. And the whole, "you can still do damage to a target/heal a player if you're facing perpendicular thing". Since it's a simpler lock-on targeting system, with no actual aiming. Not to mention that if Wildstar allowed for (not even multiple), a SINGLE battle rez, like you can still do multiple times in WoW's hardest setting, which even the Top Guild's no doubt rely on. Tank's dead in WoW? Rez him, make sure his "Persists through Death" flask still has it's hours long timer, and re-buff him with class buffs. Tank's dead in Wildstar? Everyone die/Wipe it, unless the boss is at 1% health. Heck. I'm not even going to mention Datascape, where the first boss System Daemons, would no doubt rock them. Since it's a bigger skill check than Ohmna, hits annoyingly hard, and you pretty much need everyone alive through the whole thing. I'm pretty confident in saying that WoW's Top Guilds would probably hit a wall at Kuralak, back in GA. If Wildstar's raids were anywhere as forgiving as WoW's then you might have a point, about their Top Guild's stomping. But I don't think anyone with an ounce of honesty/integrity could make this comparison. | |} ---- Obviously been awhile since you raided in WoW. look, if you want to believe that WIldstar's raids are that much harder and thats the real reason hardly anyone has cleared them, go right ahead. If you want to think guilds like method, paragon, midwinter etc wouldn't clear wildstars raids as easily as they clear WoW's mythic, fine, you're wrong :P but thats your choice. It's inaccurate to say WoW's Mythic difficulty is not difficult. it is very challenging. you're description of WoW's raiding is not anymore accurate than someone saying Wildstars combat and raids are a boring repetitive spam fest of stay out of the red and interrupt, pretty simplified stuff really, remove any other mechanics and just add red on the ground and throw in some interrupts. I don't see how having 1 battle rez available suddenly makes raids easier. better, yes, not easier. IMO it is a good thing to allow people to recover from a mistake if they are good enough or even if they get a little lucky. It adds in another element of strategy and rewards quick thinking, teamwork and co operation. Wildstars punish every little mistake and never mind trying to recover philosophy makes their raids far more one dimensional. There is only black and white, no shades of grey and I don't think you would resort to personal attacks and insults if you had a decent argument that could stand on its own. | |} ---- ---- Oh! So now things that make raids more unforgiving makes said raids the brand new line of "one dimensional" instead of "harder"? What a fantastic goal post shift. HAH! Moving on. I'm wrong about Tab Targeting Raiders in WoW clearing Wildstar raids just as easily as Mythic raids based on what? Nothing? Just like your claim of that they could? Sounds about right. What exactly did I say that isn't applicable to WoW's raids? Quote me. Go. What exactly was my overall description of WoW's raids? Quote me. Go. Where did I say that Mythic difficulty wasn't difficult at all? Quote me. Go. Or (minus the 1st bullet point, as that's merely opinion)....were you just answering to what you WANTED me to say, while you were hiding behind a ridiculous batch of nonsensical, copy-n-paste, WoW-Protectionist, stock response, memes? Like they were applicable in a one size fits all manner. Which they clearly weren't. And if you don't see how getting multiple reset buttons/extra lives for mistakes made in a fight makes raids easier, in addition to not having to aim anywhere near as much, then you're not capable of having a rational/intelligent discussion with. And I say multiple, because even in Mythic raids battle rezzing that are based on a timer, are still numerous. Because with fights lasting up to and over 10 minutes, like Mythic Thogar, Beastlord Darmac, and Iron Maidens, that's a lot of chances for screw up recovery. http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/12505891592 http://www.engadget.com/2014/04/19/warlords-of-draenor-combat-resurrection-system-overhaul/ Which means... #NotAsHardDealWithIt Which is fine, because while it's supposed to be harder than the other WoW raids, it's "Harder" with an asterisk. And I don't think that deliberate and knee-jerking strawmen (what 99% of your post was) and smiley faces, are a substitute for substance. Respond back to me when you can actually address the points being made. | |} ---- ---- Thanks for giving it another try, OP. Many of us have attempted to make these same points, but as you can see it falls on largely deaf ears at least as far as the forums are concerned. Fortunately, the developers are moving incrementally towards making things less challenging and repairing PvP to make it less perpetually abuse-prone. They have so far budged least on their philosophy underlying PvE progression, and most of the budging they have done there is probably worse than if they'd done nothing at all (I'm looking at you, gamblebox legendary DS-power gear), but there are those of us who are continuing to push for them to stop tying difficulty to group size so dogmatically. So progress is happening, slowly. Keep checking back in and maybe things will continue to improve. | |} ---- From what I understand, they're not. However, that may have changed recently. The jury's still out on it. GA as an introductory raid seems to definitely have been harder than Mythic Highmaul (just from the length of time it took to clear, even from the most hardcore guilds). However, DS40 was completed only after eight months post launch, and by only one guild. As a 20 man, it has now been completed by two guilds. That number should start to grow now that more raids are making it into DS, but that was an INSANE raid. Even as a 20 man, I've heard it's simply put the hardest piece of raiding content ever made. And this is coming from people who are veterans of games like FFXI and raided in WoW for a long time. Then again, I don't think Blizzard is exactly aiming at that kind of difficutly with their raiding content; they never did. Even when we were raiding it in Vanilla, our FFXI brethren did make frequent mention that WoW was essentially EZ mode compared to them. And those raids are now looked back on as more difficult and time-intensive compared to their newer raids, which are thought to be more casual friendly. WoW simply didn't make their bones from their raiding scene the way Wildstar does. Wildstar's raiding crews are actually here for the pummeling to climb the mountain; I think only Enigma can be feasibly thought to be here for the race. GA is still only now starting to slowly roll into farm status, but DS doesn't feel like it will be there for a while yet. In the end, that's understandable. That's how Carbine differentiates its game from being WoW in Space. It's also understandable that WoW isn't as hard as Wildstar. WoW is as hard as WoW, Wildstar doesn't have the clout to dictate the terms of the conversation. And some WoW players simply aren't looking for raids on that level of sheer meat-grind. As a comparison, here is Method's kill of Hans'gar and Franzok on Mythic, and here is Enigma's kill of the current 20 man version of Maelstrom Authority. They seem like good median raid bosses on current endgame content so that you can see the differences in how the game works. This is also a very Wildstar-esque raid boss set, so it's good for comparison's sake. | |} ---- Stopped reading there. How the hell does having a battle rez NOT make raiding easier? If anything it makes it ten times easier. Rather than needing perfect execution from every member of your Raid, you now have a safety net of battle resurrections. It doesn't make it better in any way, it just makes it, plain and simple, easier. By definition. | |} ---- I'm not going to argue with you about this. Four horsemen certainly is not the hardest fight in WoW, even if it was the fight that remained undefeated the longest. I've already said what I considered metrics for comparing fights - number of wipes by the average progression guild in that content. By the way, I've actually already seen both of those videos, thank you very much. I'm not sure what exactly I'm supposed to be looking at though. I don't consider the average amount of time you're on the move necessarily indicative of difficulty - WoW is specifically designed with tight DPS checks and movement costing you DPS, so the idea is that good players reduce the amount of time they're moving around, rather than the game revolving around dodging and dipping around. DPS some pillars down, don't stand in the red, life grip people out of the air before they plummet to their death... these mechanics exist in WoW as well. If overwhelming the screen with red is scary to you, you'd have fun with Thogar, Maidens, or Blackhand. Yet just because there's a lot of bad places to stand in Thogar doesn't necessarily make it a harder fight than Furnace. If WoW simply stripped off b-rezzes, would it be harder? Of course. Blizzard can be more ruthless with instant death mechanics when they allow for brezes though. Also, often during progression someone going down means a wipe anyways, as it means you just fell behind in required DPS to beat the enrage or HPS in order to keep the raid up. Tip top guilds with warforged BMAH blackrock gear can get away with it, but if you go in with less gear, you often can't even afford those types of DPS losses. Wasn't the first kill of X-89 16 man IIRC? So much for needing perfect execution from a full 20-man, if you don't even need a full raid size. | |} ---- Um..."no". You don't recall correctly. Since Voodoo had 20 people at the start. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5ZLuyq25G8 I guess bias is "The Anti-Research". You're also talking about the very first boss of the very first raid, and is the closest thing to a tank in spank GA. A level of ease that doesn't remotely exist with the 2nd boss and on. Which is why you always had people pugging JUST the 1st boss of GA. Long before Drop 4. | |} ---- You're very defensive. Either that, or you have a strange way of 'not arguing with me about this.' I'm not sure why you think your metrics are better; it's not like a night of raiding takes on a realm of more or less difficulty considering how many times you have to reset the fight. Having to reset the fight in DS 30 times because losing 2-3 people can mean failing the whole fight (not just for a DPS check, but because you simply can't clear the mechanics with fewer) doesn't necessarily make a Wildstar fight any harder than a WoW fight where you're spanking for 15 minutes flat and failing on the DPS check. However, according to your metric, that's how it would work. There's really only time to check and compare raids from two different games. I'm not sure that I'd bring up Horsemen being easier than its reputation suggests as a good example, either. I mean, we can sneer at some of the fights now and say, "Well, that wasn't as hard even though it took longer to clear." I did Horsemen back in the day at the first coming of Naxx. That was absolutely a back-breaking encounter when you had just gained up to that level. Is it absolutely the hardest? People have been arguing about that for years, but it certainly earned its place in the pantheon. Horsemen brutalized my guild harder than any other boss I can think of (harder still because I had to offtank it and wasn't geared for it). Even after people started telling us how to do it and we had gotten it down, I can't think of another boss fight in WoW I ever had that much of an issue with. After that, I'm not sure if the bosses were any easier, but the means and methods of play had become more manageable across the board. I recall Horsemen being incredibly difficult, though, so I wouldn't go so far as to trivialize the original encounter. It took that long for some very good reasons, and I think that, even if it wasn't unquestionably the hardest boss encounter ever in WoW, it makes a very good case for itself. At the time of its release, people were calling it buggy and figuring that it would have to be nerfed to be beaten. And, also... do you really think that fight overwhelms the screen with red? Also, you watched that video and you think that the platforms turning red is the hard part of the encounter? Or that even the hardest part of that is actually trying to push up your DPS before the platform hits you? I picked that fight specifically because it wasn't too crazy on the red. I wanted a "median" encounter. Maelstrom Authority is what I'd consider par for the DS raiding course. | |} ---- FFXIV has "party finder", which is essentially the same thing and it was wonderful (still is, I presume, I just don't play the game anymore). You pick what content you're recruiting for, what roles or specific jobs, any ilvl requirements, can select if it's a farm run or for story or welcome to new players or whatever, and can even write a little message to provide more information. So so so so so useful. And so much better than spamming chats trying to find groups. >_< | |} ---- Tip top players with almost full legendaries in wildstar still get stomped and disband when their random sends them to shallaos or bev-o-rage, you can see it both ways | |} ---- ---- Funny thing is, DPS is incredibly easy to do. 70% of DPS is gear and 30% of DPS is rotation efficiency and build. You can't say "WoW Raids are harder! Because you need more DPS!" That's just hilarious. DPS rotations, especially in WoW when you can MACRO HALF YOUR ROTATION TO LIKE TWO KEYS (I hear some classes put everything on one key, lawl) and just sit there eating a sandwich, occasionally shifting your character a bit to get out of some fire, or swapping your target to something else to do some mechanic. DPS rotations are, once you get the hang of your build, just plain EASY. It's called Muscle Memory and every human being has it. The reason Wildstar Raids are so challenging is that you have to worry about your rotation and so on WHILE being highly mobile, maintaining range while avoiding attacks to keep up DPS, etc. All while dealing with complex mechanics and bullethell-esque telegraphs that keep you constantly moving and dodging. And yes, you can kill X89 with 16 if your DPS is high enough and people know the mechanics. I think we've done it a number of times. It's the first Raid boss in the game. It's not supposed to be insanely difficult. | |} ----